Name: The Liquidity Moment That Matters: A Strategic Model for Unlocking Major Gifts
Uploaded: 2026-04-30T18:35:05.695Z
Duration: 43 min 15 s
Description: The Liquidity Moment That Matters: A Strategic Model for Unlocking Major Gifts

Transcript for "The Liquidity Moment That Matters: A Strategic Model for Unlocking Major Gifts": our time. I'm gonna go ahead and bring my friend Greg Ring on stage and get us into the meat of our conversation today. So, Greg, Yes. I'm here. there you go, and you should be able to move us forward. Alright. Thank you, Ray. Thank you. I understand your feelings there. Whenever I have, technical issues, I'm reminded of life in the eighties when you get stuck at O'Hare Airport for two hours waiting for a delayed flight. So the the age we've now live in with video calls is dramatically better despite five minute delays. Well, Yes. so happy that you're here. I was having lunch, last week with a gentleman who is the retired CEO of the largest direct mail firm in the country. They send out 350,000,000 pieces of direct mail each year. It's a firm that many of you probably have used. And we're talking about is now he's retired, the business has been sold. And I said to him, who spent his last forty seven years in direct mail, I said, you know, I believe the most underserved area in philanthropy in America is this area of gifts of assets, of folks who are now baby boomers. They're selling their vacation house, their rental property, their business, their farm, and they don't know how to do it in a way that that reduces taxes in favor of charity. He said, Greg, I couldn't agree with you more. That is the lost item at this time in American history as it pertains to philanthropy. So that is our conversation for today, creating milestone current gifts of assets while not fundraising, although that's what we're doing, but the tone that you'll see, the the feel that the donor gets is that we're serving them. They are they're leading the the conversation feeling served, not simply you've got a lot of money. Why don't you give us some? So let's, let's get started. I'm, as Ray said, Greg Ring, cofounder here at, Philanthropy Architects, husband, father, grandfather, and forty five year veteran in the philanthropy space. I'm almost done with the year '46. I've had the privilege of starting a number of organizations over that time. I was the founder of Dallas Seminary Foundation in in Texas, ran that for twelve years, then started a company called Philanthropicorp, which I ran for eighteen years, then the GivingCrowd, and, now Philanthropy Architects. All those entities are still running today. I've turned them over to other folks. Philanthropy Architects is my last entity to start. I know that because my wife explained that to me very clearly. This is it. So coming down the home stretch, we had a privilege of working with over a 100, nonprofits, really over 200 nonprofits during that time, and here's a list of a few of them. But almost $6,000,000,000 in documented planned gifts. So it's been it's been an incredible journey, an incredible privilege to serve a lot of great charities around America. Seen here with my wife, who this November will be married to fifty years, we met at Central Missouri State University, home of the Fighting Yule's. Just to establish my credibility with you as I jump into this presentation. Okay. Here we go. Here's the outline. I'm gonna spend just a couple of minutes talking about trends in American philanthropy. If you're not familiar with doctor Russell James, I think he is the premier, inarguably, he's the premier researcher on American philanthropy today. And there's a lot of free information that he has on his website called encourage generosity, webinars, texts. He's got two five hundred page books. I'm a big, disciple of, doctor Russell James. Here's one of his studies was looked at 10,000 US nonprofits, you see at the bottom of your screen there, with collective giving of a $104,000,000,000 a year. So a significant study. In that study on the left hand side, you'll see that donors in your database, donors in this study who make a single gift of more than $5,000 so not not $400 a month, but a single gift of $5,000 they make up, out of these 10,000 charities, point 74% of all the donors. Less than 1%. And yet they give 76% of all the money. Now that is a staggering a staggering statistic. Remember the old Pareto principle that 20% of your effort produces 80% of the results? This is effectively 1% of the effort. 1% of your donors are giving 80% of the money. And so there's this massive opportunity to serve that audience because those are the folks, by and large, they're the ones that are that are selling the farm, selling the ranch, selling the business, selling the apartment complex they own. And they're facing at that moment these capital gain taxes that we can help them redeploy over to your organization. This doesn't mean the donor on the right hand side, the faithful donor that's been giving $50 a month for thirty years, that doesn't mean they're not important. It simply means that the folks on the left tend to have issues that the folks on the right don't have. Another part of the study looked at what what percentage of Americans gave to charity in the year 2,000. You can see it on the lower right hand corner of the screen. At that time, 66% of Americans gave to charity. Now, we're under 50%. So we have lost, a huge chunk of donors. A different study estimates it at 26,000,000 fewer givers in America than we had twenty five years ago. And yet total giving continues to go up. So we have more money given to charity from fewer and fewer Americans. Now one of this one of the byproducts of that is those those fewer and fewer donors begin to feel that they're being ganged up on. Like, they're the ATM in town. And everybody in town knows who they are. Everybody in town invites them to the golf tournament and the charity banquet and the auction and so on. And and after a while, it can get tiresome. It can get as Guinness called this donor fatigue. One last data point from doctor Russell James is that if we look at bequest dollars, the the traditional planned gift, the gift coming when somebody dies in twenty years, 96% of those bequest dollars come from one tenth of 1% of donors. So again, it's the same group. It's the same audience. Alright. So what do we do with that? How do how does that impact, your work at your organization? Well, in we don't have I don't I haven't seen the 2025, data yet. But in 2024, there was $592,000,000,000 given in America, 67% of that from individuals, not foundations or corporations, and the vast majority of those gifts were out of cash. The the stat that's been around for a long time as we've we've heard is that the average American has 9% of their net worth in cash and 91% is in assets. But doctor Russell James says that if we look at that audience, that group, that that point 74%, the major donors in your database, he would estimate that that group doesn't have 9% in cash. They'll have 1% to 3%. So we have 1,500,000 nonprofits in America chasing this small group of folks asking for a very little amount that they have available in cash. The wealth in America is in assets. It's not in people's checkbooks. So if you're limiting your your your conversations with your major donors to what can they do for the capital campaign or the annual fund out of their checkbook. You're asking out of the small bucket. The real opportunity is with assets. I was having dinner in Chicago with a gentleman a few years ago, and he's the chief operating officer of a public international publicly traded company. Smart guy, lawyer, lot of smart people around him. Over the course of dinner, he makes sort of a passing comment to me. He says, well, Greg, you know, what my wife and I do is at the end of the year, we just sell enough stock to fulfill our pledges. And some of you are cringing right now. I said, well, you know, you could just give the charity the stock and let them sell it. This COO slash attorney says, well, I have six of one and a half dozen other. I said, well, it's really not. When when you sell the stock, you're recognizing all the long term capital gain. You now have a tax bill due. And what you have available to give to charity is the after tax dollars. And there's a long, somewhat uncomfortable pause, and finally you said, wow. We have wasted a lot of money over the years. Let's say you bought some stock for $10,000, like like our friend in Chicago, and now it's worth a $100,000. If you follow his pattern, you sell the stock and now you write a check. When you sell the stock just at a federal level, we're we're looking at 20 or $21,000 of taxes, which leaves 78,000. This is what's available to give to charity. If mister Chicago's COO had given you the stock, you, of course, pay no taxes. He pays no taxes, you pay no taxes, and he gets a $100,000 deduction. It's a much, much better much, much better outcome. So here's the question. Why do smart people do dumb things? I about, three weeks ago, I was having a conversation with a couple and, they were in their vacation house, in Florida. The husband wasn't even on screen. He was that disinterested in what we were talking about. The wife is the one that had taken the the appointment. We're on a Zoom call, and he's answering questions off screen, kind of from his lounge chair in Florida. And, finally, she says, okay, honey, we're we're going inside. We're gonna look get on a Zoom call. And so we did. And I walked him through, walked them as a couple through a few cases. And finally, she says, where were you, twelve years ago when we sold our company? Because they sold a company worth just a little bit over $100,000,000 and paid staggering taxes when they sold it, and they're a very generous couple. Here's the answer why smart people do dumb things. They're busy. They're busy running in an enterprise. They have a bevy of advisers around them. I've, tomorrow, meet with a guy selling a company for $350,000,000, and his investment banker told him that, he'd have thirty days excuse me, ninety days before they closed on the sale of the business, to do all this, quote, charitable stuff. And I I said to him, I said, well, that's not right. Once you once you sign a binding agreement, you're done as far as doing charitable trust stuff. So their advisors, by and large, not everybody, but by and large, they're not getting advice that caters to what they can do for your organization. The the banker the investment maker is trying to get the business sold. The lawyer is crossing t's and dotting i's. The CPA is is doing quality of earning studies. They're all doing what they feel is their job, but their job is not about philanthropy. Their job is not about getting money over to charity. So what you're gonna see is we can help them reduce taxes while shifting the conversation from fundraising to serving. Now there's a lot of categories. We were not gonna get into all these. There's somewhere around $30,000,000,000,000, we're told, in IRAs and four zero one k's. So today, we're not gonna get into QCDs and that sort of thing. We're also told by VIP forum that 82% of baby boomers who own a family business will sell it as they approach retirement rather than pass the business to their children. So that's a huge opportunity. And then real estate. I was in California yesterday, with several people that had prop rental property and so on that they bought years ago. And so there's massive opportunity with rental properties and farm properties and so on. So let's look at just a couple of examples. One real estate example and one, business sale example. This is they're both real folks. There's not names that are real. Just the case is real. This, husband had had his career in Texas in commercial real estate. They had one piece of property left in Texas after they retired to where their grandchildren were out in California. He was having lunch with the CEO of one of our charity clients, and he said, when we get this warehouse sold, I'll be able to make a nice gift to the campaign. And he was thinking about a $25,000 gift. And the charity CEO said, well, have you already sold the building? And, he said, well, no. Not yet. I I think a friend of mine wants to buy it, but, no, haven't sold it. He says, well, you you really need to talk to our friends at at Flandseby Architects. So over, about a three week period of time, we worked with his husband and wife and their CPA. And at the end of the day, here's what they did. They moved a 60% undivided interest in the property into a tool you all know at some level, charitable remainder trust. It's been around since 1969. It's a tax exempt trust that provides current benefit coming back to the donor, and then the remainder is gonna go to charity. So the trustee can sell that 60% portion, to the buyer, and the buyer writes a check not to the donor couple but back to the trust. And the benefits to the donors are, number one, they sell it tax free. They so it saves them a $100,000 off the bat. They get deductions, which before we're done here are gonna be over $600,000, and and they're taking income out for life. This is a great tool for your donors who've had their career in real estate. They're done they're tired of dealing with tenants and leaky roofs and toilets, and but they wanna sell this property and not pay tax. I had a conversation this morning with a guy in Virginia with a $16,000,000 property, and they wanna sell it, but they don't wanna pay taxes. So here, they can sell it tax free and take income for life. And when the husband and wife both pass away, the the corpus the the principal here comes to charity. The, balance, the other 40%, this couple gave directly to our charity client. They don't need 40% of a building in Texas, so they sold their portion to the buyer, and the buyer writes a check back. And what was gonna be a $25,000 gift after taxes became a $337,000 don't don't miss this. Current gift. Not a not this is not the traditional planned gift coming when somebody dies. This is real money right now. So the donor feels like, wow. I paid no taxes. I still have income coming out of this thing. And my deduction in California, that deduction of $600,000 deduction at their tax bracket is worth about $300,000. So we've saved them $400,000 in taxes while they're making a $337,000 current gift. Alright. Let's do one more. This is a small tech company, also in California. I live in Colorado, but there's a lot of a lot to do in California. So, I worked with two of the four owners. There was four equal 25% each owners. One of them, we're gonna call her Susan. She's in her early seventies, single gal. Her portion's $48,000,000. If she just sold it outright, which is what she was gonna do, and it's what, two of her other partners did do, her tax bill would have been $18,000,000. Now try to put yourself in her shoes. I mean, she's left with $30,000,000. If she pays full taxes, she still has $30,000,000 in her pocket. Not a bad day. She's not working at Walmart. She's she's fine. She can retire very comfortably. But she hated the idea of of sending a check to Sacramento and Washington for $18,000,000. Did not like that at all. So we divided her sale into three different buckets. 20, 20% went into a donor advised fund. I'm sure all of you are working at some level. You might have your own donor advised fund, but you're getting checks from Fidelity and Schwab and Vanguard and and other organizations. This has been the fastest growing tool in in our toolbox for the last thirty five years. It allows her to sell that stock tax free. She gets a deduction. And now she's got almost $10,000,000 in what my wife and I call for our our donor advised fund. We call it our our charitable checking account. It's where all of our giving comes from, and same with her. The next, portion, 30%, was sold directly to the buyer. This was to fulfill her inheritance goals, her inheritance objectives. She had decided that she wanted to give each of her children $5,000,000 cash plus the lake house they have up in the mountains. And she felt like my kids are adults. They're in their late forties and early fifties. They have jobs. They have kids. This is a nice add on to what they already have, but she did not wanna overinherit them. So her every family's different. I have families that wanna give their children everything they possibly can. It's all over the map. But for her, this is this was her goal. And the final portion was 50% that went into another charitable remainder trust. So, again, that's sold tax free. The buyer's writing three checks, one to the darn advise fund, one to Susan, and one to the charitable remainder trust. That money is invested inside there. We don't manage money, by the way, at philanthropy architects. We're we're doing the design. We're doing the architecture. And then she can work with her own advisors, which, by the way, her longtime financial advisor called her when he found out she sold the business. He called her to take her to lunch. He is, understandably, I'm not throwing stones, but he's ready to invest the proceeds, the the $30,000,000 that was left over. She fired him at lunch. She said, you've known for four years that we're getting ready to sell the business. You never told me anything about this stuff. I had to hear from a about it from my charity. And so she hired a different firm to manage the money. What's interesting is there's actually more money to manage than had she sold it outright. She sold it outright. There's $3,030,000,000 dollars here. There's 24,000,000 in the charitable trust. There's almost 10,000,000 in the, donor advised fund, plus she had about another 10,000,000 left over after taxes. And so there was actually $44,000,000 to manage after doing charitable planning instead of the 30,000,000 she would have had otherwise. So that is counterintuitive to most, financial advisors. Well, this has left her now with almost $10,000,000 to give to charity, current gifts, another 24,000,000 going when she passed away. But look what happened to her taxes. Her taxes went from $18,000,000 down to $5,000,000. Her cash flow jumped. Her paycheck at the company was running 5 to $600,000 a year. Now her income just out of the charitable remainder trust is 1,200,000. So we bumped her income. We doubled her income while she gave her the ability to give away $10,000,000. So I hope you can put yourself in her shoes and and the and the warehouse guy. I mean, this is this is counterintuitive, but it does change the conversation from simply we have something important that we're doing. Our mission here at at our charity is important. Can you help us? To let us help you. And we're we're delighted to take whatever position we can in your charitable goals. One last quick slide I wanna show you, and I'm gonna turn it over to Michael. Let's say that you have a capital campaign going on, and you have a donor that he he or she doesn't have the ability to just give you $10,000,000 outright. They need income. They have one asset, not a whole portfolio. This guy, let's say, he's got a farm, and he he wants to make a gift, but he needs the income. Alright. So he puts it into the charitable remainder trust. The trustee sells it to the buyer. The buyer writes a check back. And now that's the way the story ends typically. There's $7,000,000 in there. The donor has saved 1,300,000 in taxes. They have $350,000 of income for life. And when the donor and his wife pass away, $7,000,000 is gonna go to charity. What we did about seven years ago is we created what we we call LIFT, legacy income financing trust. We just we tweaked the CRT. We said, what if we what if we with a donor's sign off and blessing, of course, we said, what if we take the cash out today, not when they die? And we replace that cash with a bond. The bond is now the asset inside the trust. So it's 7,000,000 of cash versus $7,000,000 bond. But that now gives the college $7,000,000 of cash today. They they take that cash, and in the original case, they build a dormitory, part of a dorm a naming opportunity on a dormitory. And and that creates new income, student fees for the college, which they used, that $400,000 a year, they used that to make the interest payment on the bond. Now the interest is interest only with a forty year balloon payment. So there's no principal. It's interest only for forty years. However, when the donor dies let me let me back up. The donor gets the privilege, the joy of seeing this Olson dormitory, Olson student housing go up while they're living instead of thinking, it didn't get me great for the college when I die. They can see it. Did the building go up right now? The college gets that asset on their balance sheet today. And when the donor does die, the asset in the trust comes to the college. Well, the asset is the bond, and so the college just tears it up. They never make a dollar of principal payment on a note, on a bond that self extinguishes when the donor dies. So they get the asset now. They never make any principal payment. And the interest payments they're making, they're making it with new income from student fees. So that's that's a twist on a CRT that I'm happy to talk with you about later. Alright. Let's wrap up. I wanna hand it off to Michael. Bottom line is you you can't catch anything if you're just sitting on the shore where you're you're just waiting for somebody to call in and say, hey. I'd like to I'd like to give you a piece of my business. That is like the old Maytag Maytag, repairman. What we would suggest is what we call hard rock mining. The question is, how do you find these people? How do you cultivate those relationships? And how do you serve them? And that's where we're gonna segue into right now. Blackbaud, created at our request about, I don't know, five years ago, a query that allowed them to provide for charities like yours the ability to go into your database and identify donors that own multiple pieces of real estate, or they own a family business. So in the the case on the screen here is where I one of our clients that has 130,000 active donors, Blackbaud did this query, and they came up with 14,000 donors that own multiple piece real estate and or a family business. Well, that, frankly, was too many for the gift officer team, the the major gift team to follow-up on. So we added some, additional, ramifications, query to it. You you'll see on the next slide. And that narrowed it down to 4,000 people, 4,100 people. And so now what we're doing is we have been training now for, three years, the major gift officer team on what are you listing for? When a donor says, I thought my son was gonna take over the business, but I guess not. What do you do next? What's your next statement? Or we thought, the kids wanted the the the the ski house or the lake house, and apparently not. Or I'm done dealing with the renters. All these questions that do come up when you're when you're having lunch with somebody that you have a good relationship with, one of your major donors, or you're playing golf, or whatever it might be. And they make one of those passing comments, we wanna equip you with the ability to not say, oh, that's interesting. We wanna we wanna give you the ability to say, well, golly, tell me about that. And that's where this partnership with Blackbaud can be so powerful for you, as you as you begin to delve into this area of a balance sheet philanthropy or asset based giving. The lower tier here is more traditional estate gifts, more traditional plan gifts where you can look at your plan giving score and everything. Alright. So here's the common questions that we that we hear from folks. How much it cost to get this list? What what Blackbaud software do we need to access the list? How often do we need to update it? Those are some of the common questions that we that we receive. And, what what we encourage charities to do is once you get the core list, then look at length of donor relationship, frequency, all the normal things that you would wanna assess anyway before you begin to reach out to these folks. So, I wanna turn it over now, to Michael. There's the fighting mule saying goodbye, and I'm going to turn it over to, Michael, for q and a. Oh, there listen. If you want more you're gonna get these slides. So if you wanna talk and you wanna have a conversation, you can reach out to Jennifer Rogers there on the left, and there's Michael's contact information on the right. But you can pull that up later when you get the slides. So I'm gonna leave the stage. Great being with you, and I'm gonna turn it over to Michael. Hello, everyone. My name is Michael Quebley. I'm a principal consultant, with Barkhud. I have my entire background predominantly has been all in prospect development. I've been a consultant now, twenty one years. I've been on multiple boards. Some of you might be familiar with APRA, an association dedicated to prospect development. Right now, I'm serving on the board of trustees for my alma mater, Stevens College, and have been doing that since 2023. Now I'm a lover of data, and I was really excited to, again, start working with Greg and kind of going in and talking about these because going in and taking this data So these are the data sources, and a lot of places have, you know, similar data sources. I will say a couple of things. CoreLogic, I feel, is one of the better data sources for property, for not only that primary, but that commercial property, that multiple property that Greg was talking about. Dun and Bradstreet for me, still one of the better resources for private company information. My family, we started a business back in the eighteen hundreds, and we had a Dun and Bradstreet report, a lot of that. And there can be a wealth of information in there. Also, he mentioned was talking about stock gifts. So one of the things we can provide back is why you may not have all of my stock, but anyone who is an insider, who is anyone who owns 10% or more of the public company stock, one of the top five executives, or on the board of directors. I will say, having done research for this number of years, I don't care if there is a large value dollar amount associated with that insider stock. The fact that I have been an insider at some portion of my life, I will tell you I have found that those people have a lot of privately held wealth. And the additional data in there around the GuideStar and Blackbaud Giving Search, what are they giving to other organizations? So when we bring back all of those sources, we don't bring back just those that are confirmed, and the system will only confirm when it's matched on last name, first name, and address. So if my four properties are listed in the Qvebly trust, they would not be confirmed. But we do bring it back. And in that case, it would come back at a very high confidence in going in. And you, as the users, have the ability to decide whether or not those four properties do belong to me. I've been using ResearchPoint since we launched it in 2008. And unless it's Harry Potter junior and senior, I have found that it easily 85% of the time, when data comes back at a high or very high competence, it belongs to the individual. So this is the wealth point data in ResearchPoint. Now you can go in what I love about ResearchPoint, and you go to that and you open up that well point. So on that column on the right on the left side, click on the plus side and it opens up all the different categories you can go into. So for instance, in this case, you could click on the Dun and Bradstreet data or the business data. And that second column you see, all of the different resources, and you can query on every one of those. So you can get down to very specific information in going in and build these amazing queries that provide what I feel is more of a three-dimensional view of the constituents. So these are just some of the examples in what we do, for a lot of our clients. And, in the case of the, you know, the first one, this is just anybody who has a confirmed insider. Again, yeah, I like to look at the value, but just the fact that they've been an insider is huge. With the private company, what I do is, as you can see, I build I say I want it to be confirmed. And the great thing about every one of those sources, there is a field called confirmed that, yes, this data does indeed belong to Lucey Bemp Help. Then you can go in and choose what kind of company. So to and you can see the query. I chose private. And then you can go in and query on for those that have provided it, what is their job title? So chairman of the board, CEO, CFO, principal, partner, owner in going in and provide that. And so that's here your top executives at private companies. That query alone might be a great baseline query. Then you could take that query and say, how many of these have reported at some point sales of 250,000 or more? So we're finding those people at that higher level. So really wonderful information. With real estate, you can play around, not only is it confirmed, but the number of properties. So you can start with two or more, or you can even go to three or more. I always say once I find at least three properties for an individual, there is a very, very statistically high, percentage that one of those properties is an income producing asset. So you can go in and see that and then sort that query by number of properties. What I generally do when I have the number of properties right next to it, I will put the value of properties. The reason I do that, and especially with the second query, the people who have owned this property prior to, in the example, 1995 by using the recording date or date of contract. And again, for those counties that are actually reporting that, these people generally have very little or if any mortgage left in kinda going in in doing that. When I just built this for, client right before joining, went in, they had 1,400 individuals who have owned their property. I did nineteen ninety seven. And then I sorted it by number of properties. And on the first page alone, I think there was anywhere from about 12 up into the hundreds. And just how many and all of those properties and that long time of ownership, and as Greg was talking about, is capital gains would be screaming so loud in their ear. But by gifting those properties and going in and, again, a lot of people are going in. I will say just personally for me, we went through a hellacious hailstorm in Arizona, which we've never done, had to redo all of my flat roof. And I did, for a brief moment, think, gee. Why not sell this big house with a pool and just get a two bedroom condo? It just make life easier. Well, that is the mindset of people are getting in and getting close or who are in retirement. So there is an incredible amount of opportunity here. You can go in and then add, you know, recency of giving and going in and segmenting that out. And you could find people who, let's say, have been making $500 gifts, who in turn, based on what Greg talked about earlier, could turn around, gift you that property, and come out looking clean and as well as the nonprofit. So thank you. And if you have any questions, we're here to answer them. Well, Michael, we've been, coming through these questions, and Greg had a pretty good clip in the, q and a over here. And I think we managed to knock them all out of the park. So, I don't know, Greg, if you wanna revisit any of the ones that we already answered just to socialize them to the larger group in case they weren't paying attention. Do. that. Sure. Happy to. Meg asked if we could if if CRTs could receive other types of assets, not just real estate or, companies. And the most obvious, the common one would be public stock, of course. Some fiduciaries would receive Bitcoin and other, assets like that. It could also be precious metals, gold, things like that. So there's quite a variety. But here's a couple of, caution flags. Real estate cannot have debt going into a CRT. We this is not uncommon for us to come up against where somebody's owned a piece of real estate. They refinanced it, when interest rates were really low. And with the way we solve that is simply to have them, pay it off, then put it in the CRT, but maybe just put 80% in the CRT, sell 20% outright so they can recover the cash that they use to pay off the debt. So there's things that we ways that we can work around, items like that. I I hesitate to go into more detail on speed bumps, because there's such a variety, but you do need to be aware of of navigating the waters of s corp stock versus c corp versus LLC, debt. I can't live in a in a property that is inside of the CRT. So there are issues that we need to address, but that's part of the discovery phase. That's, by the way, part of the donor feeling served. If we're looking out for their interest, not, letting them get, you know, caught in the tax trap, they really appreciate that. How big are the development teams? Yeah. You know, we are most helpful, I think, with charities that do have major gift officers or development teams. But it doesn't have to be dozens and dozens. We don't have to be talking about, Texas A and M or Notre Dame or anything. We have charities that might have two or three gift officers, and our largest one has 60 gift six zero 60 gift officers. So it can be wider quite a variety. We are not very helpful, I'll tell you, with charities that rely exclusively on direct mail because the relationship isn't there. And the kind of per the kind of donor we're talking about, the business owner typically is not gonna respond to a piece of direct mail on this topic. They need the relationship. It does it can work if we speak one of us speaks at a donor weekend. We're we're having an opportunity to present asset gifts at a donor weekend. But a major gift officer team is very helpful. I hope that answered your question, Colleen. And I think we're Okay. pretty clean there. I think we got through a lot of it. We've got we're we're riding around getting close to the time. So I will begin our wrap up process. If you're frantically typing a question, don't stop because, we'll either see it before we wrap up. And if we don't, we'll still receive it, and we'll send you an answer via email if we don't get it before we, finish up today. So, I wanna remind everybody that you're gonna get an email in about twenty four hours with a a link to an on demand recording of the presentation today. So you can look forward to that. Additionally, the copy of the slides that I think both Greg and Michael mentioned at some point along the way. Those are currently in the document section, and you can download that from there. But if you forget or you don't get to it, no problem. They'll be in that email as well along with the on demand recording. So you won't lose, track of anything of the goodness that we've provided today. I would like to thank very much Greg and Michael for, joining us and providing us all this goodness. This is actually the second time I've sort of, heard this information. I'm I'm I'm newer within a year to this part of, our business, and I, learned even more this time than I did last time. So I hope this was very beneficial to all of you as well. So thank you for attending. If you, are, interested in learning more, about Blackbaud and these services, you can contact me or you can respond to the email you received tomorrow, and we can have an expert follow-up with you. But have a great day. Have a great week. I hope all your campaigns go swimmingly, and, thank you so much for your